Trevor's journey began when he was running a bar, a passive income stream that quickly became a place where he could drink regularly. Realizing its negative impact, he decided to make a change.

Ever think there's a connection between putting together IKEA furniture and getting sober?   The steps to sobriety is much like the methodical assembly of those Scandinavian flat-pack puzzles. Each piece, much like each day in sobriety, is a step in the right direction, building a stronger, more resilient self. The way you tackle those flat-pack puzzles reflects how you approach life's challenges.  What works for one person might not work for you.

This podcast is here to guide you through that assembly process, in a way that's both informative and entertaining. Welcome to Flat-Pack Sober!

In a world that revolves around happy hour and weekend beers, what does it mean to choose sobriety?


In this episode, Trevor Twohig, founder of Liquid Choices and advocate for mindful drinking and men's mental health, shares his personal journey to sobriety. We delve into the struggles he faced, the societal pressures to drink, and the moments of doubt that can make sobriety feel like an uphill battle.

Trevor emphasizes the importance of self-awareness in this journey. Recognizing your triggers and understanding your personal limits are crucial first steps. Building a strong support system, whether with friends, family, or a support group,provides the encouragement and accountability needed to stay on track.

We also explores the growing market for delicious alcohol-free beverages, making social situations more inclusive for those choosing sobriety. Trevor advocates for broader societal and governmental changes that promote readily available mental health resources and support for those battling addiction.

We discuss the numerous benefits of sobriety, including improved mental clarity, better physical health, and stronger relationships. Trevor also shares how sobriety has positively impacted his ability to manage his ADHD.

This episode is a powerful reminder that sobriety is not just a personal choice; it's a journey that requires individual commitment, societal change, and understanding. By working together, we can create a world where everyone feels empowered to make healthy choices.

This is how Trevor built the sober life he wanted. If Trevor's story resonates with you or you're on a similar path, remember that you're not alone. There's a whole community out there ready to support you. Until next time, keep building your life, one sober

Transcript

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:00) -  Hey there soba superstars! Welcome to Flatpack Soba, your catalogue of tips, tricks and tactics who design your alcohol free life. Today I am joined by the founder of Liquid Choices, a company that is aiming to get alcohol free beverages all over the hospitality industry. which I'm sure is something we can all agree is a great move. But he's also very committed to helping men with their mental health, particularly around alcohol. And if you've spent any time listening to me talking in the past, you know that's something I'm pretty passionate about. He also writes crime novels, and he has four kids, and I was wondering whether there was any connection between that, whether maybe the kids inspire the crime novels? I don't know, maybe, maybe we will get on to that. But please give a big flatpack sober. Welcome to Trevor Turek. Hello.

Trevor Twohig (00:00:52) -  Thank you very much. What a lovely, lovely, warm intro. It's, You made me sound far more excited than I am, Duncan. So thank you for that.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:00) -  Oh, you know what? I've. I've introduced a lot of, bands on stage, and occasionally, people do come up to me afterwards and go, you know, Duncan, your intro was better than the band. Haha.

Trevor Twohig (00:01:12) -  Well, that is quite a, That is quite an accolade, man. And I can see why.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:17) -  I am 100% confident that is not going to be true today. so, before we dig into, crime novels and, criminal children, I like to get to know people a little bit first. And I'd like to do that in this really weird way of asking you how you build Ikea furniture.

Trevor Twohig (00:01:39) -  well, that's very simple. I would give it to my wife, fundamentally, which.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:45) -  Outsourcing.

Trevor Twohig (00:01:46) -  Before. Yeah, before I get sort of labeled as, as a terrible 80s misogynist. that's not the crime. It is simply because, as we've already discussed off there, I was diagnosed with ADHD, and that is explained to me a lot of the reasons why literally, I can't follow things like instructions.

Trevor Twohig (00:02:06) -  And quite frankly, you know, you know, when I say, like, you marry you, you know, opposites attract. I'm in English, I write books and all that jazz. My wife is a master's in maths. She's about to embark upon a PhD in something mathematical. And I think that is it's a good union. And she. I enjoy people going to think that she hasn't really, but she really enjoys doing stuff like that when it's technical engineering and putting it together, whereas I like a nice poem. Duncan. So, so in answer to your question, I think for the case of everyone's sanity and me putting it together badly and having to undo it all and do it again, I would just pass it to my wife. That's the honest answer.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:02:47) -  Okay, well, no, no, that's that is a great degree of self-awareness and, interesting, sort of bit of couples therapy there as well. I do love that she's doing a PhD and something about mathematics that says a lot, but that's cool.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:03:04) -  That's cool. yeah. So, just like what I kind of got from that is if we really forced you to do it, you'd just get stuck in and, Just do it. You wouldn't. You wouldn't be looking at the instructions at all.

Trevor Twohig (00:03:17) -  Not absolutely. I mean, like, before I came on, to do this with you, I built a castle, from the box with my son, who's two, and I pulled all the stuff out on the floor. The instructions came, and I looked at them, and I thought I could look at them, but I thought, no. So in the end, we just built a very flimsy castle, Duncan, which was probably could have been much better and much stronger had I've looked at them. But I thought even looking at the instructions just, just makes me feel slightly queasy. So yeah, I would just be straight in there putting things on other bits and hoping for the best. Really?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:03:50) -  Oh, cool. You see, the reason why I like to start with this is I think it's important to get an idea of how you approach problems and getting stuck in being very dynamic about it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:04:00) -  You know that that has its advantages, doesn't it? And I'm sure we'll, we'll we'll find out a few things that you've done that's really worked out for, and there are some people who are like that, they're going to be thinking, right, brilliant, let's get stuck in. And then there are going to be some people who are probably a bit more like your wife, you know, they're more interested in reading the instructions and thinking it through and, you know, reflecting on it. And that is cool as well. But I like to sort of like start off by centering the guests and kind of helping people to understand where you're coming from, because some of your advice is going to really, really resonate with people, and some of it is probably going to put them off a little bit. And what I, what I think is the stuff that puts you off a little bit, maybe that's the stuff you should really be paying attention to. Let's get into that in a little bit. a little bit more detail.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:04:50) -  so tell everybody just, you know, a little bit about yourself.

Trevor Twohig (00:04:54) -  Well, I mean, yeah, like I've done a few things in. My life. You know, I've, I started off really in, in education, you know, teaching for a number of years. And then, ended up kind of becoming a little bit disillusioned with the education system to some degree. And now, when I have time, I sort of, I tutor, quite, you know, students are quite a lot of need, you know, special educational needs and stuff because I feel that's kind of more valuable. And obviously, you know, what takes up a main part of my my working day is running liquid choices. And that's obviously been borne out of a, a long, I wouldn't say I mean, it probably is an addiction, but I mean, I'm very, Yeah, I like to be careful over the language used around alcohol and so on because it can be very, you know, divisive, and not helpful.

Trevor Twohig (00:05:53) -  But, yeah, I mean, cut a long story short, you know, I started drinking when I was 14 in parks in Dartford and, never looked back. Really. It was just a sort of love affair that, grew and grew and grew until I reached a point, which I'm sure we'll get into some stage where, I felt I couldn't really do it any more, especially to the, to the degree that I was. So that brought about liquid choices, you know, and, yeah, trying to essentially help people who are in a similar position to myself, you know?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:06:26) -  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, no, that's cool. That's all good stuff. So, you you said it got to the point where you didn't do it anymore. what kind of led you up to that? How did you sort of, like, think to yourself, all right, something has got to change.

Trevor Twohig (00:06:42) -  Yeah, a good question. I mean, fundamentally, I was, I was probably my mid 30s.

Trevor Twohig (00:06:49) -  I'm 42 now. I'm, I, I was running a bar and I owned my own bar in Folkston, which, I think when I look back was probably an excuse to be able to drink on a regular basis and get away with it, I guess. And so I was at a point where, you know, having drunk, socially, for a number of years, I now had the bar and what I sort of felt was going to be a, you know, passive income stream ended up being me down there every day sorting things out. We are behind being behind the bar, running this, running that. And, and, you know, I would get text messages from mates and someone saying, oh, we're down the, you know, down the bar, you're coming down and so on. So I'd end up thinking, you know, I'd better, better go down, you know, and then then and then just end up sort of coming home really late and, you know, upsetting my wife and kind of being out all day and stuff.

Trevor Twohig (00:07:47) -  And it just ended up getting to a point where I was 22 stone. I was, very, very unhealthy in my lifestyle. Obviously, it's not just the drinking as I'm sure you and your listeners know. It's obviously the lifestyle around that. And, you know, a hungover person is more likely to then eat very badly, and the greasy foods and all that sort of stuff. So it just was it was at a point in my life where I was like, this is this is not good, you know? And I think that when I look back at photos, it was like, I don't know if it was a guardian angel or whether it was my wife's influence or whatever, but something kind of said to me, you know, this needs to stop. And I have to say, I never felt that I would ever stop drinking in my life because I come from a long line of, fairly heavy drinkers, and it's always been part of a part of life, really, to drink alcohol.

Trevor Twohig (00:08:44) -  So I didn't really think it would happen. and I think that challenge in itself kind of was, was, was exciting and engaging for me. And so I, I took it on and, it's very, very hard, you know, the journey is incredibly difficult, but, obviously very rewarding in a number of different ways. And I think from my perspective, having drank fairly regularly since I was, you know, a teenager life sober, I didn't really know what it was like. So it was kind of starting again completely, which very terrifying, but also, very refreshing in a number of ways. So. So, yeah, I think you kind of know, I think a lot of drinkers know, and I get a lot of people who, who, who asked me about my book, which, shameless plug here. my book about drinking, don't Look back hung over. and they sort of, you know, they tentatively asked because I think they're thinking in their own minds. My drinking is getting a little bit out of control.

Trevor Twohig (00:09:45) -  Have you got a copy? And so, you know, they often come back to me and go, oh, it was really helpful. Thank you very, very much. And I think I don't know, I don't know about you, Duncan, but you kind of inherently know when it's kind of getting on top of you, you know.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:09:56) -  Yeah, yeah. No, I make you absolutely right about that. It's one of the things, I maybe men more than women, but not necessarily specifically a man thing. But I've met a lot of men who, you know, they know deep down inside that they hate drinking, that it's ruining their lives, that they really want to do something else. But they're not that maybe it's deeper than that, that they just don't have the tools to ask for the help. And they they don't really know. So they come about in this sort of like gently, gently. Oh, yeah. Oh my. I want a free copy of your book kind of thing.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:10:35) -  Yeah, yeah. It's about as close as we get to a cry for help sometimes, isn't it?

Trevor Twohig (00:10:39) -  I think for men sometimes it is. That is is that way. And I think the problem is it's so ingrained in society. And I think, you know, only now are people beginning to kind of grasp the fact that men have been, you know, are killing themselves, you know, let's, let's be honest, it's not just a beat around the bush. You know, the society, you know, for many, for many decades when I was growing up, you know, in a lot of ways men have kind of dominated, but unfortunately, they haven't dominated in the way of kind of emotional and social help and where I think, women are just, you know, not that we should, generalize, but I think if you were to generalize, women are better at sharing things. They are better emotionally than men are. And, and I think that that's kind of been ignored.

Trevor Twohig (00:11:27) -  And the stress and the pressure of, of breadwinning of, of all that sort of stuff, you know, has taken its toll. And how do men relieve stress? Well, hopefully they play sport or go to the gym or do something like that, but pretty much 100% of the time they go to the pub and they let off steam. And, you know, not only that, you know, the sort of erosion of male kind of stereotypical traditional male values has also taken its toll in society. And I think that, that, you know, men don't know how to ask for help because they see it as weakness. And it is now, I think that the tide is turning a little bit more. But, it's been a quite a sad sort of thing to watch men kind of, you know, be pushed to this point. And I think, you know, one bit of advice that I got that I thought was really interesting and useful, possibly for listeners is, when I tried to quit drinking, the first time I spoke to a doctor who, who said to me, are you ready to say goodbye to your best friend? I sort of laughed and sort of, you know, jokes it off.

Trevor Twohig (00:12:36) -  And he just kept staring at me, and I was like, you guys, are you ready? And, it's very, very true. Because, you know, if you, you know, something terrible happens in your life, you lose your partner, you know, your kids get taken away from you. Whatever happens, alcohol is always there. You know, alcohol is always there for for people. And, it's it's very difficult to let go of that. And as Brits were very good in times of crisis, reaching for the bottle. And we're also very good in times of celebration. And unfortunately, from my experiences, you know, the director of Liquid Choices, having spoken to a number of MPs, it's not going to change, not not not not up top for a long time. You know, there's no plans to make seismic changes to the industry to kind of support alcohol free stuff. So unfortunately, the changes are going to have to come from within, or they're going to have to come from communities and people like yourself and so on who are trying to fight the good fight.

Trevor Twohig (00:13:34) -  And as long as we kind of stick together and do that, hopefully things look more positive for men and for women moving forward.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:13:40) -  Yeah, yeah. No. So I actually I think that's a very, very, very interesting point. You know, I think, somebody said to me ages and ages ago, if you're expecting politicians to change the world for you, you're going to be as disappointed as if you're expecting footballers to change the world for you. You know, and I, I think, yeah, we do need better policy. We do need that kind of top down approach. But we shouldn't ignore the pure power of the bottom up stuff because, you know, you worked in a bar where you owned a bar, right? Are you sold stuff that people bought? And if you had something that had got dust on it in the back of the shelf and no one was buying it, you weren't restocking it, were you? You know, so the power is in our hands because places like bars, places like supermarkets, they only stock stuff that sells.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:14:38) -  So if we keep buying things that don't have alcohol in, then restaurants, bars, supermarkets will start to stock more stuff. So how do you think the listeners can kind of put that pressure onto the bars, the restaurants, the supermarkets, any kind of. Suggestions?

Trevor Twohig (00:14:57) -  Well, it's a tricky thing because, because there have been years of, I would say sort of failure really by the industry to kind of, kind of promote high quality, alcohol free products. And so a lot of people are a bit disillusioned by, you know, I'm not going to name any names, but certain types of, you know, zero beers and so on that you see everywhere that are just not really representative of the quality of what people are making out there. So I think it's, you know, for me, a lot of my job is to go out to places and talk to people. And if I talk to independent bar owners and hotel owners and golf club owners and so on, a lot of them are interested in high quality, alcohol free products.

Trevor Twohig (00:15:39) -  But if you go to the big chains and the regionals, there's like a vice like grip upon them on what they can stock and what they sell. So it becomes very difficult to make a massive systemic change. So I think we need to, as you correctly say, make the change from the bottom up together. And I think that if you are interested in these products, then we need to be using companies like myself, like the alcohol free company, and trying these products and buying these products. And we need to be going out together, to try and influence bar owners, pub owners, etc., to be taking these, these things on. But unfortunately, Dan and I think the battle we face is that a lot of people who are alcohol free now have either tend not to go out so much because of, what's, what's on offer, what they perceived to be on offer. you know, and and if they do go out, then they're just so disillusioned with the alcohol free market that they that they will just go, oh, Diet Coke or lemonade or whatever.

Trevor Twohig (00:16:40) -  So I think it's about working together. I think it's about, you know, joining joining us, signing up to our mailing list and stuff like that. It's the campaign for alcohol free options, because although we know the battle is tough, we are up for the fight and we want to try and get, you know, as many people on board to then be able to take it to Parliament or to wherever and say, look, you know, we need to change things at, a higher level with regards maybe to licensing. And that's something that we want to do. We would like to in a year, two years, five years time, however long it takes to be able to say, look, for every five beers you've got on tap, let's say we think maybe there should be one that's non-alcoholic. You know, we're not asking to take over. It's just asking for a very small sliver of the space to help sober because, you know, I don't know if you know this, but 1 in 5 people who are in recovery relapse when they go back to pubs because of the offer that's there.

Trevor Twohig (00:17:41) -  And, you know, the cynic in me, Duncan, would suggest this is by design because maybe, people, you know, people in control and power want, you know, the population to be sort of, sedated and whatever. I hope that's not the case, you know, but, it's a it's a fight, man. It's a difficult thing. So I think we all need to come together. And I think, I think the beauty of it is the sober community is, is is strong and it is, it is, growing and it's very supportive of each other. You know, I'm an alcohol change ambassador. I'd advise people to get involved with alcohol change. They do brilliant stuff. and I just feel like, you know, everyone in the community is building their power. They're coming together, we're getting bigger, we're getting stronger, and so on. And what I want to do is kind of jump over the battlements and get into the other side and try and get those guys, and that's the plan.

Trevor Twohig (00:18:36) -  But I think it's going to take a little bit more time. But that's, that's that's the goal, you know. So I think yeah. Yeah I think it's about working together manually.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:18:43) -  Yeah. No, no I make you I make you absolutely right. I will give you a free dose of cynicism. Not that you really asked. You know, the reason that I think that a lot of politicians don't want to change is because they don't want to admit that they themselves have a bit of an issue with alcohol. They want to buy into the myth that it's all fun and games, that alcohol doesn't cause them any problems, that they themselves are drinking at a happy, moderate level that isn't going to cause them any problem. And the same is true of journalists. That's why alcohol is all over the media. Not any kind of sinister conspiracy theory. It's just most journalists are, you know, they're still drinking too much, and they are using their, platforms to subtly justify their own drinking. And that's something that we definitely need to change.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:19:35) -  So I'm happy to put on my warpaint and jump over the battlements with you that, that sounds that sounds cool. what sort of. I mean, I love the idea of kind of like, increasing the percentage of alcohol free drinks. I think that's that's a great one. Any other sort of, like, solid things that. You think the government should be doing around tax around. You know, age limits, education, anything like that.

Trevor Twohig (00:20:03) -  Well, yeah. Like like you say I think the government has is tried and obviously the most recent budget, you know, duty was increased to think and you know, the cost of alcohol by volume went up, which I think is a positive move. I'm not I'm not sure whether it necessarily works long term because, you know, you see the same faces in the pub and they just kind of, I think, you know, rather than rather than, rather than that being a deterrent, they just sort of, I don't know, maybe have one pint less or whatever, you know, the regular drinkers.

Trevor Twohig (00:20:36) -  But you know, I think, I think that, that that does help. I think that lobbying people to kind of, MPs and so on to just kind of say that this, you know, this is the research and this is here and I've sort of leant quite heavily on, a July 2023 document, the alcohol change, have put out which, which is on the website under the research section if anyone's interested. But it talks about how, you know, alcohol free drinks can really help and support those people who are heavy drinkers. And I think from my perspective, it was absolutely imperative to have an alcohol free drink, because I think a lot of people are looking for, you know, how do I how do I go from the working day to evening time? You know, people, you know, one thing that separates human beings from animals is that we are always looking for an external stimulus, and sort of drugs are kind of always played a part in that since the dawn of time, whether it's, magic mushrooms, whether it's plant based things, you know, whatever it is, there's it's always been a part of humanity.

Trevor Twohig (00:21:43) -  If you look at, you know, any of the ancient texts and it's not abnormal for human beings to, to desire altered states of consciousness. And I think that's what the that's the role alcohol plays. You know, I've had a tough day at work while I'm going to break out, open the Sauvignon blanc. You know, we've all been there, you know, and I understand that. But I think, you know, what we need to do is, is change people's mindsets. And I think, sorry, just going back to original, you know, the point you made about the journalists and so on, I think you're absolutely right. And I've had people in quite high positions sort of say this to me that, you know, Parliament is a hotbed of that type of activity. And unfortunately, if you're in it, you know, it's like if you're in the drinking cycle, it's very, very difficult to see an alternative life. And I think even if you're one of these people battling with it and going, oh, I only drink 3 or 4 days a week or 2 or 3 days a week.

Trevor Twohig (00:22:38) -  I've kind of got it under control and I'm kind of moderating. It's still in the cycle of addiction, really, and I know a lot of people don't want to realise that or accept that. So it becomes very, very hard. It's only when you abstain for a period of time that I think you realise how addictive and dangerous and, negative the drug is on you. And like I have done that and I've gone back to drinking and I try alcohol and the taste of it, it's overly sugary. It's it just tastes abhorrent, you know, like I find it really, really bizarre, which is why, you know, it's so hard for people to give up. And I think, you know, in answer to your question, it's there's not it's very hard. It's a very difficult battle. And I think what we need to do as a community is change the rhetoric and the language around alcohol. And I think it's slowly, slowly happening. But, you know, one of the things that we want to focus on in 2024 is to kind of, you know, give balance to the whole, advertising and marketing campaigns that alcohol companies employ, which is like, you know, you can if you drink this type of vodka, you're going to get these hot girl boys or this is going to give you this great time, you know? And what we want to do is balance it and kind of go think about tomorrow morning, you know, think about your gym session that you had planned.

Trevor Twohig (00:24:03) -  That's not going to happen. Now, you know, think about your sleep, you know, because the one of the key things, one of the main things for me as someone who's sober, now is, is the sleep, you know, the sleep that I get, I get seven, seven and a half, if not eight, depending on my children. that a night at night and it's solid sleep. And I wake up and I'm ready for the day, and I can do stuff. And I could never do that when I was drinking, you know, it was. It was a, it was, it was Russian roulette as to how well I'd sleep and and some days would be heinous, like, you know, I'd get to 3 p.m. in the afternoon and be desperate for another drink, you know, just to kind of ease off the ease off the panic and all that. So I've sort of gone off on a bit of a tangent, Duncan. But, I mean, fundamentally, the battle is hard.

Trevor Twohig (00:24:47) -  There is nothing really hard and fast except, you know, trying to come together, trying to support the alcohol free industry, trying to show. People that, these these products are high quality, that they should be in pubs and bars and like I say, joining joining us, joining groups like Alcohol Change UK who, who, you know, are lobbying and who are trying to get the word out there for sobriety and for the sober, curious.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:25:14) -  brilliant, brilliant. I totally agree with you. And incidentally, you just reminded me of a conversation I had with somebody the the other day. They, they were just celebrating their year sober, and they did the kind of like, well, you're sober post and I love all of those, you know, like, don't stop doing them. I'm not being critical or anything, but at the end of it, you're like, after listing all the benefits of being sober at the bottom, she put Who Knew? And I was like, well, I knew and Trev knew.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:25:39) -  And like, basically everybody knows, you know, it's like you gotta go sober. You know, the reason you didn't know that was because we don't have the same advertising budgets as big alcohol does. You know, if we could, like, use the same dollar amount to get the message out there about how great sobriety is, I don't think anybody would drink, but there we go. So I mean, that's the that's one of the things that I think there's a real danger that the government, you know, like it's great they embraced all of this anti-smoking message. They, you know, they put the warning labels on the packet, but not once did they ever stick on the packet. You will feel a whole load better if you don't smoke. And they're all negative messages. And you know what I would if if I was in charge, you would be legally mandated to have a big sign on the front of every bottle of every alcoholic beverage out there saying, you don't need to drink. This will make you feel awful.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:26:38) -  And, there are many better ways of solving the problems that you think this is helping you with.

Trevor Twohig (00:26:43) -  Yeah, I think I think you're absolutely right. And it would be lovely to have that. But for some. Well, yeah, I think the reason the reasons are there, I think I think, you know, unfortunately we're fighting a very difficult battle against that. And I think, like you say, with smoking, I don't know, I think, I think the appetite was, was, was probably there for a little bit longer, I think for people to because it's so antisocial and pervasive, you know, with alcohol. I think this is kind of like you say, at the top of the country, the people who make the decisions, it is part and parcel of their lifestyle. So I think the sober and the sober curious are coming in from the bottom up and kind of going, hang on a minute, life can be much better than this. but unfortunately as well, we've got this problem that, it's tied in with sociability, isn't it? It's tied in with the idea that the alcohol is social glue.

Trevor Twohig (00:27:33) -  And, you know, I still have this issue in my head. You know, as someone, you know, my parents were immigrants to this country. They both came from Africa. And, they came to this country in the 70s. And so for me, part of trying to assimilate with British culture in a lot of ways was kind of, pub life and football and so on, and all of that stuff is is synonymous with alcohol. And it's taken a long time to program myself to go, you can't do this stuff without alcohol. And, but if it is made significantly harder by the pubs not providing robust, alcohol free options and the fact that it is a, you know, like, say it's roulette, you don't know, you might walk into one pub in London and they might have a whole alcohol free menu and it's excellent. And you're like, you know, the happiest man alive or lady. And, or you go into place and they go, well, we've got Becks blue and you're like, okay, right.

Trevor Twohig (00:28:31) -  So it's just that whole thing of, of, of can we try and get a situation where things are just a little bit more fair, a little bit more. And I mean, there are positives. You know, we have got a few more sober places popping up, like a saint have opened a bar in London, a pub in London. And obviously Club Soda has been there for a very long time. And now the touristic bar guys from Brighton were planning to do a pop up in London as well. There's one in Manchester. so I think the movement is there. Duncan and I think we are doing the right thing and I think we're in that, you know, if you put it in a business sense, you know, sobriety is kind of in an early, early adoption phase, you know, and I think that, that we're kind of hopefully coming together, hopefully moving forward together and trying to get to a more positive place. But it becomes it's very hard. It's going to be done via community and individuals rather than from government.

Trevor Twohig (00:29:29) -  You know, that is for sure.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:29:31) -  Yeah. No, no, I make you absolutely right. I think we're at the foamy bit of a break in wave. but I do like the early adopter thing. I'm probably going to steal that. I like all good politicians. Incidentally, I've just invented a piece of policy totally and utterly on the fly. How about this for an idea? If you want to become an MP? you know, not only do you have to get elected, you have to pledge to be sober for the first six months. In office. And then you. Then you'd know, wouldn't you?

Trevor Twohig (00:29:59) -  That would be a fantastic thing to do, may. That would be lovely. I'd like that very, very much. Because, you know, we can we got over it. We've got over the sort of reality of what it's like. But, you know, as David Nutt said, Professor David, you know, alcohol would be banned if it was released now. And he lost his job for that, for that comment.

Trevor Twohig (00:30:20) -  And, and that that to me is, is so kind of telling about the situation, you know, everyone in power, everyone really knows how bad alcohol is, you know, and it's not, you know, these stories about moderation is fine and this is fine. The more studies that are done that aren't funded by the alcohol industry are showing us that alcohol is bad on every single level. It's not just putting on weight. It's not just calories. It's not just sugar. It's it's everything to do with your mind. As you said earlier off er about the vascular system of the body. But it's also spiritual. You know, in Arabic alcohol means alcohol, which is which is body eating spirits. That's what it means. so, as you know, you know, a majority of Muslims, well, Muslims in general shouldn't, shouldn't drink as part of their, their religion because, you know, it's known from ancient times that alcohol is something that takes you further away from your true self. And people who have become sober realize that the payoff over time is that you are more you.

Trevor Twohig (00:31:30) -  You are more the person that you were born to be, that you know, spirituality and your consciousness. And so, you know, frequency rises when you're when you're not drinking. And you know that because you can feel it inside you. And when you have had 3 or 4 heavy nights of boozing in a row, you feel that and you don't feel good, you know? So the proof is all there. So it's how we get this message out to people to try and, try and make a difference. And maybe, you know, a lot of people say to me, it's time. And it may be I'm just, banging the drum too much and I think, I don't know, I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe that's the case. Or maybe you can't bang the drum too much, you know?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:32:10) -  But maybe I can answer that straight away. You cannot bang the drum too much. the definition of success is when people say you're talking about something too much.

Trevor Twohig (00:32:21) -  Yeah. Well fair enough.

Trevor Twohig (00:32:22) -  I like to hear that. Sounds good. That sounds good. I mean I think that's it. And I think that, you know, there will come a time where, where people, you know, in power won't be able to ignore the sober community anymore and they will have to adopt what they don't want to seem to want to adopt. But in the meantime, I can say, we've just got to enjoy the community. And, like I say, you know, please look at places like Liquid Choices, Alcohol Free Company and so on, because I think that a lot of people who are sober, curious aren't aware of how cool some of the stuff is that's out there. You know, we've got drinks now, botanical drinks that, you know, claim to have the same effect as having 1 or 2 drinks. And really, that's what people want, isn't it? They want a slight change. But after the first two glasses of wine or the first two beers, it's never as good, is it? You know? You know what I mean? It sort of goes into so, you know, those are the types of things that we we like to sell, things that are robust with lots of things that have a USP, and that we think are going to be around for a long time.

Trevor Twohig (00:33:23) -  So, you know, I think it's about people being brave and having the, having the courage really to step outside of that alcohol comfort zone and trying things that are new because there is this inaccurate belief that, you know, oh, you know, the alcohol that I drink has real flavour. And I get this a lot about alcohol free beer. So it's got no flavour. And it's like, I don't know where the alcohol is if you try like, I don't know, like a whiskey or something. I mean, it has a taste, but it's not pleasant, you know, whereas some of the alcohol free spirits that we stock and that other people are stocking are fantastic, it's so delicious and they're so tasty. I mean, we've got this.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:34:03) -  Name, names. What's your favourite? Yeah.

Trevor Twohig (00:34:06) -  Well, I mean, at the moment I'm, I'm very, you know, we've got this drink called the Pathfinder, which, came to a brilliant bit of marketing. It came to me in a box which, it says destroyer of Bad vibes on the bottle.

Trevor Twohig (00:34:20) -  And it arrived. I didn't know where it had come from. I'd never seen it before. It's kind of done. I wish I had one now, but it's kind of done like a medicine bottle. and it's an American thing, but it's botanical, it's herby, there's lots of juniper. It mixes beautifully with ginger, with apple, with coke. And it feels like you're having an alcoholic drink in the sense that it's not, you know, there's a real flavour and a robustness to it. But you know. Yeah, that's exactly. Well, yeah, it's exactly what he's grown up and it's it's fabulous. But I mean, just before I came on to speak to you, I've got people saying. It's me, you know. Oh, I'd love to buy it, but, you know, it's too expensive. And, you know, that is another issue that the alcohol industry sort of faces and that the products are priced at the same price as alcohol. And people find that a barrier.

Trevor Twohig (00:35:09) -  And that's a tricky thing as well.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:35:11) -  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. then there's like there's an absolute ton of stuff in there. I really, really like it. But I just want to get it back to you. So, how did you stop drinking? What was the method that you used to, to find sobriety?

Trevor Twohig (00:35:30) -  I think, it's like it's difficult. It's it's not one size fits all. And I think you've got to find your own way. I've. I've sort of document this in my book as well, you know, that. I find that I couldn't necessarily go cold turkey, you know, and I think it's always important to take medical advice with regards to this. but I was drinking quite a lot, so I tried to do was just slimmed down my amounts, on a daily basis, if I was drinking ten pints a day and I dropped to eight the next day, six the next day, six, and so on, until I got to a stage where I could kind of just stop and, and that's, I think was key to what I did.

Trevor Twohig (00:36:12) -  And then I think that for me, once I was sober, one of the things that really helped me was to try dry apt, which is, which is a dry January thing that you could download. And I think, for someone who was a drinker, you know, it gives you that little dopamine hit at the end of the day of like, yes, I've been sober today. Yes. Clicked. And so that was really, really lovely and really important. It gives you lots of advice. It gives you loads of things in there that are really quite powerful. and the main thing really was I swallowed a great deal of quetelet, and I whether it was Claire Pooley or Catherine Gray or whoever it was, even if it was sort of like a, say, sort of the, the, you know, women who people may think that I wouldn't have any relevance to someone like me who absolutely has relevance, you know. Absolutely. So, I found, yeah, I found reading up on different people's perspectives really, really interesting.

Trevor Twohig (00:37:10) -  I found Alan Carr's book about quitting drinking really simple and easy to digest. I found Professor Knapp's book, was a professor in that it might be someone else's at William. Someone's. But. Yeah, but.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:37:25) -  Yeah. Explained drink exclamation mark, which is Professor Nut's book.

Trevor Twohig (00:37:30) -  Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:37:30) -  So very good.

Trevor Twohig (00:37:32) -  Both. Yeah. Yeah, I think probably both. I mean, but yeah. Thank you for that. yes. and I sort of. So I think if I'm right in, the. Yeah, if I'm right, one of them, possibly David Nuts, explains more about the science of it. That might be important, but either way, that was quite interesting to me as well. You know, like I liked hearing about people's personal stories and so on. And I got a great deal of comfort in that. but also I wanted to understand a little bit about the science and what, what what the drink was doing to my body. And I found that very, you know, very insightful.

Trevor Twohig (00:38:05) -  So those are all things that are important. Again, you know, there's lots of podcasts now out there that, relate to all different types of people, you know, like managed to sobriety now is run by Daniel Daniel Riley, who was Dapper Laughs who sort of aims at kind of more, you know, laddy geezers and stuff. And he's got things all the way up to sort of quite high brow things as well. So there is something out there for people getting sober, and, you will find your kind of tribe if you like, and where you sort of need to be. And I think, I think, yeah, it was just a case of jumping in, realising to myself that I was probably not going to be around to watch my children grow up. whether that would be, my wife leaving me or, or the other way, you know, I needed to make a change. And so that was a highly motivating factor as well. But I don't think you need to, like, hit a rock bottom to, to, to change your lifestyle.

Trevor Twohig (00:39:09) -  But I do think you need to have, a lot of tools around you. Like the books, like the podcasts, like the apps and so on. And I think if you have those, they really give you, they really give you kind of a lift when, when you're doubting yourself and stuff, you know. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:39:26) -  Yeah. No, no, I, I, I completely agree with you. I think you've, you've said a whole load of stuff. So let's dig into that a little bit more. so you cut back, you're drinking on your own without any assistance. So you kind of like, did a managed detox, you know, dropping the amount over, what, like a couple of weeks. And you did that without any support?

Trevor Twohig (00:39:50) -  I did that without any support in the sense that I didn't use like, AA or anything. That, I was part of, Well, I got into alcohol change fairly quickly. but that was more kind of me in an ambassadorial role, sort of going out and supporting people.

Trevor Twohig (00:40:08) -  and. Yeah, no, I didn't really. And I think I was very lucky in the sense that, because I've got, I've got my family, and my wife quit at the same time as I did, and she was a big drinker. And we met in bars and clubs, you know, in Folkestone and so on. And so we, you know, we kind of it was a bit of a thing for us. But she was very keen to stop and I was very keen to stop as well. And just to see what life like and the other side. So I think I was very lucky that I had that support network and always have. And so because of that, I was able to kind of do it on my own. and yeah, like a safe from that. I ended up just, I think as part of becoming sober is you do tend to go on a little bit of a kind of spiritual awakening and a journey about yourself, and you learn more about what you're like, and, and you learn more about the sort of maybe the nature of consciousness and so on.

Trevor Twohig (00:41:01) -  And so that, for me has been incredibly, interesting and uplifting and some of the goals and aspirations that I have. 2024 alcohol just kind of goes completely against that. So I always have to keep that in my mind when I'm feeling that sort of. 4:00 5:00 always be a time, you know, I sort of have to say to myself now because it will affect your sleep and it's kind of become a mantra in my head. Now, I kind of know that, like if I, if I pick up the drink, then it's going to it's going to have such a knock on effect for the rest of my, my life. that it's I just don't do it now. I just so. Yeah. So that's kind of how I get through it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:41:38) -  Yeah. I mean, I think everything you've said there, you know, I that for me, really, it just drives home the idea that becoming sober is something that can really help you develop that kind of self-awareness, and that's sort of goes hand in hand.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:41:54) -  You know, the more aware you become of who you are, where you want to be and what you want to go, the more it supports your sobriety and the more sober you get, the more it supports your self-awareness. So it becomes this nice kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, this upward spiral. But I'm also kind of really interested in what you said about the app and about the dopamine hit at the end of the day. now, I don't know whether you said this, during the interview or, before we were chatting, but you talked about ADHD. do you think that that kind of dopamine hit from the app, do you think that's particularly useful to you because of your ADHD, or do you just think it's a good thing to be doing?

Trevor Twohig (00:42:38) -  I think it's particularly useful to me having ADHD. Yeah. I think we talked our fair and I yeah, I was diagnosed in May last year and it's taught me again, it's probably wouldn't have happened had I not if I was still drinking. then I probably wouldn't have had that diagnosis.

Trevor Twohig (00:42:54) -  And I probably wouldn't have been able to learn about certain triggers and so on for me. and, you know, I have to say that people who I think, I think a lot of people are neurodivergent and they don't realize it because I think the society that say you're my generation grew up in was TVs, the advent of computers and so on. And, and there's lots of screen time. It was a very new thing. And I, I personally believe that screen time and stuff like that has caused a lot of neurodivergent. I think it's a new thing. I'm not sure it's entirely natural, for the human condition and so on. So a lot of people, I think, probably have some form of neurodivergent. There is a lot of stigma involved around that. A lot of people don't want to admit it, you know, and I want to sort of ever sort of go down that road. But for me, it was very illuminating and enlightening because, a lot of my behaviours, relationship breakdowns, work I couldn't stay and work for for very long because I'd get bored.

Trevor Twohig (00:43:52) -  so all of that sort of stuff, which was usually put down to my kind of, you know, oh, Trevor's just naughty or Trevor's justice or Trevor's drinking or something related to that. Actually, it was kind of like. Oh, right. Well, that's probably the reason why. And when you dig deeper, you go, My God, that's exactly the reason why. and so, yeah, just on that, you know, I, I ended up being diagnosed. What is this essentially Ritalin. It's methylphenidate, which, in short, is kind of like speed. It's very it's a controlled drug. It's, it has that effect of, of of what sort of amphetamine to do to your brain. and you can always tell the ADHD person in the room if, if you're at a party or something, because they're the ones who've taken the class A drugs and they're very calm and relaxed. and, and everyone else is sort of. Well, yeah, euphoric and partying and that's kind of, the nature of ADHD, really.

Trevor Twohig (00:44:44) -  So I ended up being on that and found them very, unpleasant. And again, like, say, I'm not a doctor, but everyone has to do their own thing. But for me, I found them quite addictive and quite, Overpowering. So I set about finding a way to naturally kind of cure, not cure cures to strong. But yeah, manage my ADHD. And, I think I've done that and sort of it's around exercise and it's around meditation and it's around those types of things that really, really help. So I am acutely aware of, dopamine and how that affects me. It is very is harder for people with ADHD to say stay sober. They say that ADHD people with ADHD probably have nine addictions in their life. So hopefully I'm on about eight or something like that and managing to get through them. But but yeah, it's tough, it's difficult. And, you know, getting sober is is one thing, but staying sober is also another thing entirely. But I think you can change your life to such an extent that you can hopefully eliminate a majority of the temptations that you previously would have succumbed to.

Trevor Twohig (00:46:00) -  Maybe.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:46:01) -  Yeah. No, I think yeah. Again, you are absolutely on the money. You know, getting sober is easy. Staying sober is the trick. And that is why, you know, we all sat here listening to you, trying to steal all of the good stuff that you've done. And I, I think, you know, that whole kind of self-awareness, having other options to drink, you know, finding other ways of getting that, that dopamine hit, whether that's the meditating or exercise, that's all the good stuff. Getting informed. Listen to the podcast, all the quetelet that is all all good stuff. And, you know, if I might make an observation, if you don't mind, I think you have done eight addictions already and your ninth is campaigning. And don't lose that one.

Trevor Twohig (00:46:45) -  Love that. That's great. That's great, I appreciate that. I do think that, you know, it's really to add that like I for anyone who's listening to this, who's thinking about getting sober or whatever, the most important thing for me, advice wise, is to not beat yourself up at all about anything, okay? Because I've spent a lot of time, you know, and one of the main things for me about drinking is if I am drinking, then the next the whole of the next day, I'm thinking about when am I going to get my next drink? And it takes up too much of my brain.

Trevor Twohig (00:47:13) -  It's not that I have a problem. It's not that I get violent. It's not the, you know, anything like that. It's not that. It's my drinking is out of control in any way. It's just a case of it totally takes up my mind, and the mind is is the key to everything. It's a key to your happiness. It's the key to the soul. And so something that we have to protect. And if you are giving alcohol, you are damaging your mind. quite a lot. And so my advice is to never, ever beat yourself up if you fall off the wagon three times in one week, that's absolutely fine. Like, you know, I have I did go and sober Dave, you know, and I spoke about, people who, who, you know, they're 7484 days sober. And I'm very pleased. I'm very pleased, and I'm very happy for those people. But I am also anxious and aware that that can be demotivating for people who are struggling.

Trevor Twohig (00:48:07) -  And, like I say, people who have neurodivergent, who are more prone to slip off. So basically be very, very kind to yourself, have your own rules and, and do the best that you can and realize that that is the that is what you're doing. It is the best. And, you know, I spoke earlier about how lucky I was to have the support network. I do, and I am lucky. But what I meant to go on to say so I apologize. I jump around a lot, but like I, I wanted to go and say was that if you need that support network, use it. Like if I was single, you know, I probably would go to AA, you know, and it's only because of time, children and so on, you know, that I don't do it, but I think I benefit massively from it. And maybe there'll be a time when I'm older and I have more time that I could do that, you know? But again, I think all stigmas need to be, eradicated in this sphere.

Trevor Twohig (00:49:03) -  And I think that, you know, the most important thing is if you have addressed the fact that you feel that alcohol is becoming a problem for you, that is the main thing. And I fall off the wagon quite regularly. You know, like last year, West Ham won the champions, we won the European Cup in Prague. And I was there and I wasn't drinking. And then suddenly I was drinking, you know, and I knew that I knew what the implications were and so on. But unfortunately, part of my upbringing in my programming is around our celebration. And I was with a group of people and these things happened. And so I beat myself up for ages about that, you know, and I shouldn't because we're all doing our best. You know, life is hard. Life is a struggle. And I feel that, you know, as long as you are trying and you are kind of, on the path to sobriety. And trying to improve. you know yourself. Then I think you've just got to give yourself a little bit of leeway and a little bit of slack.

Trevor Twohig (00:50:02) -  You know.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:50:03) -  You got to treat yourself like you treat one of your mates, haven't you? Because it's your friend that screws it up. You're all understanding and compassion. You know, you you you treat them like you're the Dalai Lama, don't you? But when when you're talking to yourself, it's like you're talking Vladimir Putin style, isn't it? You kind of need to, to give yourself a bit of Dalai Lama stuff. So I think you're you're absolutely on the money there. And I totally agree with you about, concentration and focus and mental space. You know, one writer to another, you know, that is our stock in trade, isn't it? We need to protect that. And we spent so long. Well, at least I spent so long pretending to be Ernest Hemingway and writing complete garbage and, doing nothing about it. And, Yeah, I stopped drinking. Published three books. There you go.

Trevor Twohig (00:50:53) -  So there you go. Congratulations. My man. It's, it's an interesting thing.

Trevor Twohig (00:50:57) -  And, you know, you learn a lot from Hemingway. He says, you know, you've got to be, you know, sit at the typewriter and bleed, you know? And I think that's a fantastic quotation. You've got to be, you know, I think what essentially he's saying is to be genuine and true to yourself. And I think for a lot of us, alcohol is like a veneer, a synthetic sort of veneer that goes over the top. And we think, you know, I thought for years it's part of my personality, it's part of my charisma. I wouldn't be Trev if I'm not drinking. And that's total you know what? So, so I don't want to.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:51:26) -  I don't want to turn this into a sort of like, postgrad level dissection of F Scott Fitzgerald. Tempting as that would be. But, yeah, we probably ought to wrap it up. But before we do, what's your thoughts on Ikea meatballs? Do you like them? Do you like them? Do you love them?

Trevor Twohig (00:51:45) -  So it's a great question.

Trevor Twohig (00:51:46) -  I'm not sure I've had them. if I'm right and I'll be honest.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:51:50) -  They're awful. everybody everybody hates them. But when they go to Ikea, they sort of feel that they've got to eat them. And that's my way of getting into this idea of what? What is it about sobriety? The thing that everybody should do, but nobody really wants to do?

Trevor Twohig (00:52:07) -  What is it about? What is it about sobriety that everyone should do? That I thought was the.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:52:12) -  One thing that everyone should do, but nobody really wants to do.

Trevor Twohig (00:52:16) -  Okay, well, I think. I think the most important takeaway I can give people is, is just. Well that's a good question man. Good question I mean I think I think that really looking after your inner self is the most important thing. And given our busyness and the way modern life is at the moment, money, economy, war, all that stuff. I think my biggest takeaway that I can give people is that everything comes from inside and everything is within.

Trevor Twohig (00:52:53) -  Okay, so if you take half an hour a day looking after what is within you and I, you know, meditation is a good place to start, holiday breathing and things like that. I could get very woowoo, but it's a good thing we're stopping. But, but yeah, I find that, those sorts of things are incredibly important for your, mental state and for your mind and are going to keep you, you know, in a good place to be able to tackle the day and stay sober for that day.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:53:24) -  Oh, perfect. Perfect. So, just to let everybody know. So, what was the name of your book again?

Trevor Twohig (00:53:31) -  Don't look back. Hangover. How to handle your.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:53:34) -  Reference, isn't that.

Trevor Twohig (00:53:36) -  Is it? Yeah. Because the point if you read the book, like all the chapters are references to songs from the 90s and the 80s that I grew up listening to and like being that, you know, music, going to gigs in London and so on. It was an alcohol frenzy, you know, in a drug frenzy.

Trevor Twohig (00:53:53) -  And so that's that was kind of the point.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:53:56) -  Supernova.

Speaker 3 (00:53:58) -  I don't know.

Trevor Twohig (00:53:58) -  Alcoholic champagne supernova maybe. But yeah. Yeah. No it's been but yeah. No, that's out there. It's under the name pen name of Trevor Warman. it is like a, little chilled out look. It's sort of a look from, from someone who's done it, and it's supposed to be an accessible, approach, for people to kind of look at their drinking, you know, rather than the scientific side of it. There are elements of science in there, but it's very sort of, yeah, an approachable kind of, book, you know.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:54:27) -  Oh, right. So grab that off Amazon. And what about liquid choices? How can people find out more about that?

Trevor Twohig (00:54:32) -  Well, liquid choices go to the website or the Insta and and yeah, follow us. Sign up to the newsletter if you want to try any alcohol free products, that we've got on there, give us a shout and we'll send them out to you.

Trevor Twohig (00:54:45) -  but yeah, just like, say, stay following and help us fight the good fight. Basically. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:54:51) -  When the revolution comes, my brother. Will obviously put all of that on the show notes. But thank you so much for your time today, Trevor.

Trevor Twohig (00:55:00) -  No. No problem. It's been an absolute pleasure at times. Whizzed by, isn't it? And hopefully, you know, that's been been helpful and, and yeah, look forward to getting you on my podcast when it's back up and running.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:55:12) -  don't worry, we'll we'll do more than that. We'll keep fighting the good fight.

Trevor Twohig (00:55:16) -  The stuff. I'll get my warpaint on.

Speaker 3 (00:55:18) -  Oh.