Kat's hard work turned into workaholic mode, a common yet often overlooked addiction, which wasn't healthy for her. Kat's story highlights the importance of recognizing and addressing unhealthy habits before they control us.

Ever think there's a connection between putting together IKEA furniture and getting sober?   The steps to sobriety is much like the methodical assembly of those Scandinavian flat-pack puzzles. Each piece, much like each day in sobriety, is a step in the right direction, building a stronger, more resilient self. The way you tackle those flat-pack puzzles reflects how you approach life's challenges.  What works for one person might not work for you.

This podcast is here to guide you through that assembly process, in a way that's both informative and entertaining. Welcome to Flat-Pack Sober!

Ever wondered how small changes can lead to a healthier, more mindful life?

In this episode, Kat Thorne, an international keynote speaker and founder of The Morning Game Changer, shares her personal journey, discussing the impact of unhealthy habits like workaholism and alcohol consumption. She emphasizes the importance of mindfulness, small steps towards positive change, and the role of exercise in maintaining energy levels.

We explored the growing availability of non-alcoholic alternatives - discussing her experiences with non-alcoholic beverages and how they can be a game-changer for those looking to reduce or eliminate alcohol consumption, as well as the significance of morning routines, where we delve into practical strategies for integrating mindfulness into daily life, the benefits of establishing a consistent morning routine, and how even minor adjustments can lead to significant improvements in overall health.

This episode offers valuable guidance for anyone looking to overcome unhealthy habits and embrace a healthier lifestyle, highlighting the power of small, intentional changes in creating a more balanced and fulfilling life.

This is how Kat built the sober life she wanted. If Kat's story resonates with you or you're on a similar path, remember that you're not alone. There's a whole community out there ready to support you. Until next time, keep building your life, one sober piece at a time.

Transcript

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:00) -  Hey, the sober superstar's welcome to Flatpack sober. Your catalogue of tips, tricks and tactics who design your alcohol free life. So today I am joined by somebody very, very interesting. And I was looking on her website. so this list of descriptions, for lover and problem solver dog mum lives by c 5 a.m. alarm clock brackets. used to press snooze a lot. Those brackets. Editorial comment. I think we can probably all catch up with that one. blazers are my thing, and food is life. Now, I don't know when she put that on her website, she thought that's the perfect thing for Dunkin to use as an introduction for me today. I really hope he doesn't mention that I'm a very competent international keynote speaker, and that I help companies to improve the health, happiness, and productivity of their employees. I hope he just goes on and on about the dog mum coffee lover bit. So yeah, well, give her a big, warm welcome to Kat Thorne.

Kat Thorne (00:01:02) -  Hello. Thank you.

Kat Thorne (00:01:04) -  What a nice introduction. Well, it was nice.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:06) -  Was it good? Because sometimes I go a bit rogue on the introductions and I'm like, sure, but there we go. So before we get too into it, let's talk about Ikea. So are you familiar with with the works of the big blue Swedish company, I presume? Sure.

Kat Thorne (00:01:24) -  I sure am.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:25) -  Oh, of course. And if I gave you some, flatpack furniture, let's say a bit of a Billy bookcase, how would you go about building it?

Kat Thorne (00:01:33) -  I'd pay someone to build it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:36) -  Outsourcing is always good. I, you know, I'm a fan, but if I really made you, if I forced you, you know, how would you do it?

Kat Thorne (00:01:46) -  I'd probably, read the instructions, then phone a friend.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:53) -  Okay. Okay. So, is that kind of the approach that you normally take, like, buy a book and ask somebody who knows about it?

Kat Thorne (00:02:03) -  I think in this sort of time poor world we live in, finding out someone who's already done it before and and using your time carefully would be my first go to option.

Kat Thorne (00:02:14) -  I think one of the things I've learned in businesses and in my life is that there's a job there for everyone. Everyone's got their own skill set, know what you're good at, and then get other people to help you to do the other stuff.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:02:27) -  Yeah, yeah. No, no, I 110% agree with you, and I'm not sure that's only been true in our time for world. I mean, I think if you wanted to paint your ceiling back in the day, you probably should have gone and ask Michelangelo anyway. You know, it's like it's always been a good idea, hasn't it? So, Yeah. The reason why I like to start with this question is I like to get a bit of an understanding, a bit of an idea about who you are, where you're coming from, and how you learn things. And would it be fair to say that you're you're fairly social and you like, like to, to, you know, get help from other people? Is that is that fair?

Kat Thorne (00:03:05) -  I think that's a fair assessment of me.

Kat Thorne (00:03:07) -  I'm a big people person and a big, fan of learning. I love being around other people and get energy from other people. It's very it's very important to me.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:03:19) -  All right. Cool. Well, let's get energized then. That's good, that's good. And I think, you know, it really helps to sort of like set the scene and there will be people out there who who they, you know, are very much more reflective and prefer to learn on their own. And therefore, some of the stuff that you say won't gel with them, which I often think means that they should probably pay more attention to it and really, really try it. But, you know, that's that's an entirely other story. So, other than the, the coffee and the alarm clock. Well, actually probably not. Other than the alarm clocks, I think that will come up. other than the coffee and the dog and the seaside. tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kat Thorne (00:03:58) -  So, Wow. Do you want to hear about my story and how I ended up here? Or.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:04:04) -  There you go. yeah. Let's go. Let's go for a quick version.

Kat Thorne (00:04:08) -  So I grew up in Somerset. I lost my mum when I was really young. I was four years old. She died from an asthma attack. And I think that really set the tone for my life, because at a very early age, I learnt the value of of how precious life is, but also I learnt how important it was to work hard if you wanted to get somewhere in life. And I had two siblings and I sort of took on this mothering role, and I feel like whilst I had a fairly happy childhood, I definitely missed out on things. And I think my ambition and drive to have a better life than the one I had growing up has also caused me huge challenges in my life. So I think when you are ambitious, it's great in so many ways, but it can also be, it can also be like a incredibly difficult thing to manage because my ambition has tended to turn into workaholism.

Kat Thorne (00:05:11) -  So, I think when we had a chat offline, we talked about how we're all addicted to different things. Everyone sort of got an addiction and I didn't used to believe that. But I think as I've got older and got more experience of the world, I feel like a lot of us are definitely even if we don't recognize it. And I definitely didn't recognize that I was a workaholic. so sort of fast forward. So grew up sort of in a country bumpkin kind of way. Couldn't wait to get out of the village. went to university. Was the first person in my family to go to uni, which was really, really challenging financially. so had to work a lot. And I know a lot of people that have had to do that. and then I became a teacher. I didn't know what else to do and started teaching. did that for two years. I've always loved learning, and I thought, you know, teaching would be quite a natural fit for me, but actually very quickly realised I wanted to go into the corporate world.

Kat Thorne (00:06:11) -  I love the business side of things. I like things that were fast paced. I wanted more control, I wanted to earn more money and I was not going to do that as a college lecturer. And I went to work for the most amazing tech company, this Norwegian tech company. And it was at the time when Michael Gove had announced that every school had to have a learning management system. So edtech was blowing up just at that moment. And honestly, I had the ride of my life. It was the most incredible seven years I was running around different countries. I was, you know, climbing the corporate ladder. I was earning more money. I was being challenged. I was learning so many things. I had so many great, you know, friends. And in my personal life, I would have given myself like a ten out of ten in terms of happiness and success. I had what I had written down, kind of subconsciously on a, you know, this is what my life's going to look like list.

Kat Thorne (00:07:13) -  I was checking all the boxes one at a time. I'd met sort of who I thought at the time was what love of my life. I was planning a wedding on a beautiful Greek, beach, and, I just bought a house in bath and everything was on point. It was all going perfectly and without any warning, I blew up my whole life. and basically everything exploded in front of my eyes. And when I look back now and this is why I built the Morning Game Changer, which is the company that I founded two years ago. When I talk about this life explosion, I realize that there was one thing that happened to me, and I think this happens to a lot of people, and it will probably resonate with people who are listening, but I, I basically, blew up my whole life because of years of unhealthy and toxic habits, snoozing being one of them. so that's kind of the quick story, of of how maybe we can get into some of that on your this episode.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:08:21) -  Yeah. No, that, well, I was going to say that sounds good, but obviously, I mean, getting into.

Kat Thorne (00:08:25) -  Yes, yes, I know what you mean.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:08:26) -  Like blowing up your entire life, but, Yeah. Okay. so, you mentioned, unhealthy habits. I think the listeners probably know a little bit about unhealthy habits. anything in particular? What was what were the big ones for you?

Kat Thorne (00:08:46) -  The phone is huge. And it and it remains one of the number. I think it is the number one thing that people struggle with. Employees I talk to on a daily basis, companies I work with. I think most people can relate to their phone, dominating them. And alcohol was also I mean, I wouldn't say it was a huge issue for me in terms of like, I felt like I had control over alcohol, but I definitely was of the mindset of It's Friday. Oh, it's actually it's Thursday. It's nearly Friday. We can definitely have a drink. and that whole mindset of waiting for Friday, because on Friday it felt like we had some kind of invisible permission to drink a lot of alcohol, to then undo some of the stress from the week.

Kat Thorne (00:09:39) -  and, and a weekend. Didn't used to feel like a weekend unless alcohol was involved. And I think because it is so socially, available and accepted and part of our culture, it was never something that I really like looked at in detail. And I think alcoholics to me were people who were, waking up and drinking a bottle of vodka and, and not, you know, not, actively participating in life. and yet, you know, you then when you start to sort of step away from alcohol, maybe have a different relationship with it, you realize, actually, there are a lot of people who are functioning with alcohol in, in lots of different ways.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:10:22) -  Yeah, yeah. So it was like you think just like, well, I've got a list of stuff that I want to achieve and I'm taking that all off and I've got a house in bath and I'm planning a wedding in Greece. I can't possibly be in public.

Kat Thorne (00:10:35) -  No. And I definitely. And I don't, you know, even to this day, I don't I think I had a problem with alcohol that and I think it's a common problem.

Kat Thorne (00:10:44) -  And I think the problem is that we use it as a way of relieving stress and as a reward and as a way to relax. So I think, you know, of course, there were weekends when I didn't have any alcohol and I wasn't, you know, climbing the walls looking for it. But, it wasn't something that I, it was definitely something. If it was there, if I was at a wedding, I would drink. It would never be, you know. And actually, I was one of those people that used to say, why are you not drinking? Are you pregnant? You know, because it didn't make sense in my brain why you wouldn't be drinking.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:11:28) -  Yeah, yeah. It's, the one thing that I always end up falling back on is that David Foster Wallace thing where, you know, there's the the the older fish swimming past two younger fishes. And he says to the younger fishes, how's the water, boys? And they swim on a little bit further and say, what's water? You know, it's just it's so pervasive.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:11:49) -  It's so absolutely everywhere that we we just don't think about it. We don't even kind of acknowledge that it exists. It's just like, oh, it's just alcohol, isn't it?

Kat Thorne (00:12:00) -  Yes, absolutely. And I think it's the same with the phone. It's the same with snoozing. It's the same with morning routines. Like because this is what we've always done. Because when you're a child, whoever you were raised by your caregivers, your parents, probably when you became a school age and you went, if you went to school, you would have experienced that whole morning rush and the kind of the sheer stress and panic. And for some people, hell of trying to get. Your number one goal is to get that child to school or for your parents, it was your caregivers to get you to school. And then when we become adults, our number one goal is to get to work. And we and it's never occurred to us to do anything different. And actually, I was doing, a follow up session on my one Small Habit Changes Your Day program this morning.

Kat Thorne (00:12:49) -  And this woman said that she has got a son who's got Down's syndrome, And and he's also blind. And she said that it doesn't matter what time she wakes up or he wakes up, it still takes a really long time to get him ready for school. And she said that she's since listening to me talk an event last towards the end of last year. She's now just started taking him into school later because she's just putting all this pressure on herself. But yet she was doing that before, but just maybe just needed to hear that it was okay to just focus on what she can control. and similarly with the snoozing, it's like all of our alarms have got snooze functions and old fashioned alarm clock has got a snooze function, and it's so common. We've always done it. Why would why would we not snooze? Who? Who's ever told you it's bad for you? And actually, it's incredibly damaging on your health.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:13:46) -  We invented those, by the way.

Kat Thorne (00:13:49) -  I've got a lot to answer for.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:13:51) -  Yeah. I mean, you'd like. I know as as a species, we've come up with lots of nasty stuff like cigarettes and nuclear weapons, but I'm putting snooze buttons up there.

Kat Thorne (00:14:00) -  Snooze buttons are up there. They don't. Yeah, people don't even realize how how damaging they are. I mean, I always and I always think that's really incredible when people, after hearing me talk and they say, you know, wow, I didn't realize sneezing was so bad. And to be honest, nor did I. And that's why I did it 4 to 6 times every single morning, thinking that that was the way to regain energy and have a bit more, have a better day.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:14:25) -  Yeah, yeah. I mean, so I sometimes wonder with that kind of snoozing thing, it almost seemed to be like I just wasn't that interested in life, you know? It just like I didn't want to get up and get started. I wasn't really particularly motivated by it. It was like, well, I just stay in bed.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:14:44) -  Thank you very much. Do you do you think there's a psychological component to it rather than just, sort of like thinking that you're going to get a bit of extra energy doing it 100%.

Kat Thorne (00:14:54) -  And do you know what I think it is? And this again, what I talk about this yellow box concept. So for most people, when they when they open their eyes, most people have a bunch of negative thoughts. And we have so many thoughts every day. And often they're repetitive and often they're negative. So typically your first thoughts that day aren't, oh, it's, you know, Monday. Let's have an amazing day. What a great world we live in. It's you know, it'll be what I got to do today. What time is that? Oh, I haven't done that. Oh, God, I forgot to do that. I haven't remembered this. So, that's how we typically start our days. And because we run straight into this autopilot work mode, and they did a study before, before the first lockdown, I think it was 2019.

Kat Thorne (00:15:40) -  On the number of people that look at their phones within the first 15 minutes of opening their eyes, and they found that 80% of people do it. I think it's probably a lot higher. But in any case.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:15:51) -  Just to be fair, you've got to look at your phone. Otherwise, how else would you press the snooze button on it? True, true.

Kat Thorne (00:15:58) -  But this was actually they asked people if they were doing things in their phone outside of their alarm, and they found that 80% of people were. But, but I think what happens is people wake up and their first kind of thoughts and, and then the actions are to get ready for the day. So rather than having this yellow box, what I call it, this kind of buffer, this, this activity that excites you or energizes you in between opening your eyes and starting your day. It's just, straight. Even if it's something you enjoy doing. If you even if you love your job or your work or whatever as you're doing, I think that is the and also the other danger with it is that it means that we're not mentally and physically ready for the day and how many times, and we've all done this.

Kat Thorne (00:16:46) -  Have you looked at something on your phone and you're kind of like, you've got one eye open and you're like trying to read something or trying to watch something, and you haven't even come round yet.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:16:57) -  Yeah, yeah. So I mean, obviously, you know, alcohol has got quite a detrimental impact to, to sleep. And I mean, that's that's the thing that I connect most with the snooze button is, you know, waking up sort of like after drinking too much. And I'm really I don't think hangover is quite the right right word, but down in the bottom of that kind of like feeling awful after a ropey night's sleep kind of thing, pushing the snooze button. But obviously if you've stopped drinking, are you saying that there there's there's more things that we can do better, things that we can put in place to really improve our morning even more?

Kat Thorne (00:17:42) -  Yes. Of course. so just on the alcohol part. So I don't think I ever. So I think when you stop living in this autopilot state of mind, you raise your awareness.

Kat Thorne (00:17:53) -  And when you raise your awareness, you start to see things differently. You start to get clarity, and you start to live intentionally rather than living like a robot. And for me, when I was in that phase up until 2016, where I was, have, you know, the reason I used to snooze so much? So it was this vicious circle snoozed a lot because I didn't sleep well and I didn't sleep well because of all the unhealthy habits, including drinking, you know, alcohol and the alcohol, as you say, does have an impact on your sleep. So. But I never sat and thought to myself, hang on a minute, I wonder why I'm not sleeping well, could it be? And also, I think we're often in that defensive mode, like because that was my treat or my enjoyment. Like, you know, there's no way I wanted someone taking that away from me. So I probably subconsciously didn't want to admit that they were connected. but definitely never spent the time to make to join those dots up.

Kat Thorne (00:18:51) -  so. But now obviously now I don't drink. I yeah, I think it's huge. I can see the ripple effect in all areas, but of course, especially your sleep. But there are so many things that you can do, in that yellow box moment that only take a few minutes, they can, you know, 5 to 10 minutes that can really power you up for the day. And the way I like to sort of explain it is I think we are like walking energy bank accounts, and we're spending energy on everything all the time. But we don't very often recharge, and we wait until we're not even on like 0%. We wait until we've switched off and, you know, been off for a while before we think about recharging. And by then it can be too late or things have already started to, you know, we've always started to get in trouble. So having those few minutes every day to mentally and physically kind of invest in your brain and your body, they kind of supercharge you.

Kat Thorne (00:19:55) -  And and then I think when we face challenges in life, whether that's professionally or personally, we're more ready. We're more like resilient. But most people just are always skating on the edge and so something little can push you over.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:20:12) -  Yeah, yeah, I think I think that energy analogy is such a good one. And it kind of reminds me of, of back in the day when, when I was drinking, it would always be I get back from work and, you know, I was I was quite busy in the evenings as well. So, so I'd do stuff and I'd, finish up and I'd be kind of quite tired and I think, I'm tired now. I should probably go to sleep, but I'll just have a quick drink beforehand. And that would of course like re-energize me. And then it was like it was it wasn't so much just that I didn't have energy. I just when I did have it, it wasn't even in the right place. You know, when I did have it, it was like when I should have been getting some sleep and.

Kat Thorne (00:20:57) -  And yes, yes, and this is the irony, I think, that so often, so exercise has got to be the biggest positive habit that we all, or like many of us, struggle with. We've got a lot of negative connotations to it. And so people say to me, but I haven't got time to exercise or I'm too tired to exercise. And it's like, let's reframe what exercise is and how long it has to be because you're literally, you know, doing you could be doing something that gives you energy if you don't feel like you've got enough energy, but you're sort of telling yourself the opposite. So, yeah, it's interesting. I'm I met, somebody recently who told me that they drink two gin tonics every single night and that they were giving me all these reasons why they did that. And I was quite shocked at first to, because I've never really drunk during the week, you know, Thursday maybe, but generally my. And again, this comes back to what socially acceptable isn't it.

Kat Thorne (00:22:02) -  So generally weekends is socially acceptable. And I was quite shocked. And I've have continued to be shocked. And I've spoken to people about this, that, that quite a lot of people drink every night.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:22:15) -  13.5% of the highest earners in the UK drink on a daily or nearly daily basis.

Kat Thorne (00:22:20) -  Wow. Wow.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:22:22) -  Indeed. Yeah.

Kat Thorne (00:22:25) -  Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:22:26) -  Yeah. so, I think you're absolutely right about that, that exercise. Because I've always. I've often had a resistance to doing exercise because I'm tired. but then when you go and do the exercise, you always feel like you've got more energy after it. And to actually sitting on the sofa is more tiring than exercise, right?

Kat Thorne (00:22:49) -  Yeah. Yes.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:22:52) -  Yeah. And so what I mean, I think exercise is like one of those kind of things that maybe is a little bit misunderstood by by people in general. We just, we just bandy this word around kind of thing. But it's quite a broad spectrum. So what sort of exercises would you encourage people to to be doing?

Kat Thorne (00:23:14) -  Well, first of all, I would get I get people to think about it differently.

Kat Thorne (00:23:19) -  So if I could throw exercise out the dictionary, I would, because I think it has so many negative connotations and I, I think we should look at it exercise in different ways. So movement literally move your body because if you think about your you get one body. And I think when I nearly lost my life, you know, I was two weeks away from having a heart attack in 2016. I remember waking up for months and months and still, you know, snoozing, scrolling. But I remember my heart, like, feeling like it was going to jump out of my chest. And when I look back now and think, you know, I didn't respect my body, I didn't look after my body. And I when I say this, sometimes I think people roll their eyes and think, I'm talking about having a, you know, a candlelit bath and I'm drinking green juice and doing this yoga. And I'm literally talking about, you know, the fundamentals of treating your body and your brain like you would treat your car.

Kat Thorne (00:24:21) -  and I said this to a group the other day that, you know, we you would never expect your car to, if let's, let's say services and Mots were not mandatory and you could just keep driving your car at some point, the oil light's going to come on, and at some point a tire is going to blow because you haven't put air in it and no one expects their car just to keep going, keep going, keep going without any maintenance. Yet for some reason, as human beings, we expect our bodies to keep going, keep going, keep going on our brains keep going, keep going, keep going. Even though we're not treating them, we're not looking after them. We're not re-energizing them. We're not, restoring them. And so I see exercises, movement and as energy and as a, a fundamental gateway to all the goals and all the dreams and all the things that I want to do in my life. So if you've got these big plans to travel, you're going to need these two legs and this body to take you on that.

Kat Thorne (00:25:19) -  Those travel plans, if you want to have a family or if you want to see your kids grow up, or if you want to start a business or whatever it is you've got, or if you just want to have a really comfortable, happy, safe life. Whatever your your idea of success looks like, you need your body to do that for you. And it's not going to play ball if you abuse it. And I think abuse and neglect is what the majority of people are doing, because doing nothing is also the same as not looking after it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:25:55) -  Yeah. So is that kind of the the idea that we think of doing nothing as sort of like, like standing still when in actual fact doing nothing is moving backwards, isn't it?

Kat Thorne (00:26:10) -  Yeah. And what is it? So I always I love this, this idea as well. So think about this concept. Right. So sometimes people say this to me, let me tell you this idea first, then I'll explain. So imagine you're sitting with your loved one and it can be your your somebody you're married to.

Kat Thorne (00:26:27) -  It can be a partner. It can be a family member. It doesn't work if it's a dog, this, this idea. So it has to be a human being. And imagine you're sat on your sofa and you're watching a program together, and one of you pauses it, and the one of you goes out of the room to go to the toilet or get a drink. What does the other person do within a nanosecond of you leaving the room?

Speaker 3 (00:26:49) -  Jay, do you.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:26:49) -  Want me to answer that? Okay, well, it depends whether it's me or my wife. My wife will doomscrolling Facebook and I will sit there and stare into space.

Kat Thorne (00:26:59) -  Okay, so let's go with your wife for this one. So majority of people would pick up their phone and just aimlessly look at information on their phone.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:27:10) -  Now, the only reason why I don't is because I suspect we've read the same stuff.

Kat Thorne (00:27:16) -  But some. But it's interesting. And then. And then I was watching a video by Jay Shetty and he's got this video about why most relationships are failing.

Kat Thorne (00:27:26) -  And he says that most couples spend quality time watching TV together. And it got me thinking that I've seen it with my own eyes, and I think we can all relate to it. So you've got couples who are or families who are watching TV quality time whilst on their devices, and then to make things worse, you can go upstairs where you've got a couple in a bedroom and you've got a TV and they're on their devices. So I think this is just such a huge challenge and sometimes people say to me, but scrolling is my like my recharge. That's my relaxing time. And and I also like I can really relate to this because this is what you used to say to myself, but this is why it pains me so much. And this is why I'm so passionate about helping people create positive habit change. Because you are just kidding yourself. You are lying to yourself like lying on your sofa and scrolling a bunch of negativity. Absolute rubbish is not energising. It's not charging you. But we think it is.

Kat Thorne (00:28:35) -  So we like to do it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:28:37) -  Yeah you do. It's almost as ridiculous as saying I like to treat myself by pouring poison down my throat.

Kat Thorne (00:28:43) -  Yes. And it's not poison, is it? Because it's, you know, a lovely gin and tonic or a cold, crisp glass of wine? And that's the thing, it's not labelled as poison. And it's so interesting because when you say the word poison, if that can imagine if that was written on bottles.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:29:01) -  Oh, did you know that's something that that constantly baffles me, because if you look at acetyl aldehyde, and you want to buy that for your chemistry laboratory, it will come with all of these big warning diamonds on saying it is flammable, saying it is toxic, saying is hazardous to health. And that is what your body turns alcohol into. yeah. Alcohol. You know, you stick it in a most beautiful bottle you like. You don't have to put any warning labels on it. It is the one hazardous chemical that is completely exempt from hazardous chemical regulations.

Kat Thorne (00:29:39) -  Yeah I know but I but I think that and I find this with my work as well. So obviously you, you've had your own experience with alcohol and you're I know you're very passionate about this and and and alcohol definitely, you know, has played a part in my life. But I think part of the challenge with this is that you you have to have, you have to be open to hearing this and where so many people are using alcohol to get through. Like a lot of people are using alcohol without even consciously realizing it to manage with the stresses of their lives. So no one wants to hear you say it's poison because we don't. Because actually it's very readily available. It's affordable, it tastes nice, it makes us feel nice. So I don't want to hear it's poison. And in the same way, sometimes people don't want me to. Don't want to hear me say that snoozing is toxic or they don't want me to sit here, say me. Say that scrolling on their phone first thing in the morning, last thing at night isn't the most conducive thing for the mental health.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:30:50) -  No, no. You are. You are dead right there. I'm not very popular. I just have to live with that, you know? But, So I don't know that that, I mean, that's that's such a good point. I, I consider myself to be a bit of a crusader, a bit of a campaigner, you know? So what what what what's the what's the secret? How do we get the message out there without, just putting everybody off? I mean, obviously, you know, you don't listen to a podcast like this without having a bit of sympathy for for our cause, but, so. So what can we do? You know, how do we get the normies to understand?

Kat Thorne (00:31:28) -  Do you know what I think it is? It's the extremities that you want to avoid, even, honestly, even for me. Like, I'm not ready yet to say I'll never drink alcohol again, but I can't. I can't imagine having a drink again at the moment, so.

Kat Thorne (00:31:47) -  But saying I'll never, ever, ever, ever, ever. It feels too heavy. It feels too much of a commitment. And that's also what I think is quite interesting, because psychologically, I could spend the rest of my life in this state and and never have a drink again. But to kind of make that hard and fast sort of declaration, feels somewhat overwhelming. And I think with things that people are remembering, human creatures, we're so comfortable, in our sort of comfort zones. So whenever we are trying to make changes, it can be really uncomfortable for us. So what I tend to find when I, when I deliver my talks, alcohol comes up quite regularly as something that negatively impacts people's performance, energy, all areas of their lives. But rather than quitting alcohol, what a lot of people want to do is be more mindful of it, reduce it. And so I think it's like with anything. I think I've been on a bit of a journey with reducing alcohol and now making a conscious decision not to drink it.

Kat Thorne (00:33:04) -  and I think it's those small steps. I think that's how you get people on board. So if you're somebody who drinks daily, it would be interesting for you to experiment. Not during drinking during the week or and seeing how that feels, seeing if you can notice difference, because I've met people who've, after hearing me talk, have stopped drinking during the week, have noticed a radical difference, and that's also impacted their drinking at weekends and has decreased it. That's very different to go. And you should stop drinking because it's poisonous.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:33:37) -  Yeah. No, no, I.

Kat Thorne (00:33:39) -  I'm not saying you would say that either.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:33:41) -  Oh I occasionally I do. I am a bit disagreeable. and actually that's kind of We'll pick up on moderation in a second, because moderation is a really interesting topic. Okay.

Kat Thorne (00:33:52) -  Okay.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:33:54) -  just that kind of point of view of you're not yet prepared to say that. Do you think that's kind of part of who you are? And therefore the most effective strategy for you is to say, well, I'm not going to do it now.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:34:07) -  We'll let the distant future take care of itself. I'm not ruling it out. Is that a part of who you are?

Kat Thorne (00:34:13) -  I think it's a part of who I'm evolving to become. I've always been somebody who's had a master plan, has lived and died by a checklist, and it hasn't worked out very well for me. So I'm trying now to live in a world where I'm happy to just let go of of things And I'm constantly evolving and I've, I've for the last few years where I've been putting so many sort of positive habits in place, like alcohol and the way it makes me feel. to be honest, less on a sort of physical level and more on a mental level. I don't like the thoughts that I can't get control over that come via alcohol. And then of course, on top of that, it's like the sluggishness, the eating horrible things because you just that's kind of what can be what alcohol does to you. and also I just, I, I want to be somebody who, really looks after their health.

Kat Thorne (00:35:21) -  And alcohol for me doesn't align with those values. But at the same time, I think, you know, for example, I had a, the, the I've only I only drank alcohol once in 2023 and it was when and and this was at the beginning of 2023. I was, it was in this experimental phase of not going to drink. so it's quite a relatively new new. Not that I had drank much in the last few years. I definitely had reduced it massively. But, I went to Italy and I went for a friend's 40th birthday and we had a wine tasting event, and I drank, you know, so I tasted some wines as part of that event. And I really enjoyed it because I really like wine and I enjoyed the wine tasting and the food that came with it. And we're sat in the hills in Tuscany, you know, so romantic with five, female friends. So for me, that memory was, was quite profound. And it and sometimes I find even just being a vegetarian quite awkward in certain cases when I'm traveling or I'm with people I don't know very well, and it would have been really difficult for me to have enjoyed that experience.

Kat Thorne (00:36:47) -  It's going to sound this is hard to say because now I'm not drinking. I wonder if I would think the same way, but at the time I really wanted just to be in that moment with everybody else. So I didn't drink very much alcohol, but I wanted to try the wines. Does that make sense?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:37:04) -  Yeah, I think it does. And I mean, I think it resonates probably a lot with people who, like the alcohol free stuff for exactly that reason, because it, it makes them feel like they are a part of everything. You know, they, they do feel excluded if they're drinking Coke because it's not the same thing. I mean, personally, I don't feel like that, you know, I but for me, the the truth is that it's the people that you're with and the situation you're in and you know what's happening. That's what's enjoyable. What you drink has got very little to do with it. Plus that and the fact that I watched far too many Perrier adverts when I was a kid and I think sparkling water is really sophisticated.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:37:52) -  you know, other than that, but I absolutely see where you're coming from, and I think, I think it's very interesting because, you know, you obviously get people who who do say one day at a time, you know, all I'm committing to is not drinking today. They've been doing that for 20 years, which for me looks like they're never going to drink again. But, you know, for them, psychologically that is the only thing that makes sense. And if that makes sense, you know, if they're kind of like, I'm not drinking now, but I, I'm not ruling it out in the future. If that's what makes sense to you, then makes sense to you, doesn't it? You know, we've got to find our own path.

Kat Thorne (00:38:30) -  Yeah. But I think talking about the alcohol free alternative is quite interesting. So. And I think the more I'm on this journey, the more confident I am with not drinking alcohol. and last year when I sort of started like the year before last, it was the Christmas of 2022, I made this conscious decision because I was going through a difficult personal situation, and I knew that it was already hard for me to manage and that alcohol would exacerbate it.

Kat Thorne (00:39:00) -  And so if that situation continued for quite a long time during 2023. So again, I just stuck to it. And now I am not in that situation anymore and feel very strong. But still I'm really enjoying the clarity. And we had a Christmas party, a few weeks ago and I just I had such a great time, I hosted, drinks at my house. In fact, half of us were sober and half of us were drinking. We managed to make drinking games, and we made drinking games fun for the sober people by adding Tabasco to lemonade as a shot. It was quite funny. and I really, I because I really enjoy wine. I have been seeking out, alcohol free alternatives. And if that wine tasting in Tuscany was to happen again. But this time I could have a flight of non-alcoholic wines, I would be so all over that. I would love that. And actually, it's one of the things I get a bit frustrated with because you can get a non-alcoholic beer in most places, but non-alcoholic wine is not coming through mainstream yet.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:40:07) -  No, no. are you prepared to name names? Are there any that are worth, giving a shout out to anything that you really like out there?

Kat Thorne (00:40:16) -  I really like this, a Pinot Grigio called Not Guilty. it's like a dog behind bars, and, And I really like that, and it's. And it's really reasonably priced. It's like, less than a fiver. and there's a few different ones I've tried, but yeah, they, they can be a bit hit or miss, as you can imagine.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:40:36) -  Yeah. I think the one thing that we're doing quite well as blokes in the sobriety space is becoming obsessed with alcohol free beer. So, that might explain why there are now an enormously large amount of alcohol free beer options out there, because, you know, the men are finally stepping up and contributing something to the sober space.

Kat Thorne (00:40:59) -  No, it's really good to see, isn't it? And you can get obviously like you and I think I had a brothers cider, you know, at some point over the Christmas holidays and you literally you can't I don't think you can taste the difference.

Kat Thorne (00:41:11) -  But it's interesting because I'm vegetarian so often think, are they similar the alternatives, because I don't really want to eat things that smell and look like me. but for me, there is this ice. I, I do have this, you know, sort of romantic, I suppose, association with, with a bottle of wine and really enjoying it. And I'd like to see a world where we can have really nice wines, and wine tasting and all of that without just removing the alcohol, because there's something really lovely about having wine and having it with a meal and sharing it with friends, and then getting in your car and driving home and having a really good night's sleep and getting up early and feeling great.

Speaker 3 (00:41:54) -  Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:41:55) -  Yeah. So, you want the idea of it, but you don't want the downside? and I think that's that's eminently doable, because what you really actually want is a sophisticated adult like drink. You don't want the only alcohol free options to be, like warm Diet Coke, right?

Kat Thorne (00:42:15) -  Yeah, absolutely.

Kat Thorne (00:42:17) -  And I don't think non-alcoholic wine tastes very different to wine. so that's that's the beauty of it for me. But I think, yeah, I think it's so I mean, we could talk about it for hours, couldn't we? But I do think we're going to see in this space now, more and more, nonalcoholic spaces. And I and I do wonder what's the future of of sort of alcohol with a kind of increase in people becoming more sober, curious or whatever you want to call it?

Speaker 3 (00:42:50) -  Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:42:50) -  I mean, I think the analogy I always like to make is if you look at, Wagamama, the, the very, very nice noodle bar, I so sound like I'm angling for sponsorship, doesn't it? I think so. Brought to you by Wagamama. Anyway, they recently turned their menu 50% plant based. So 50% of everything that they do is, you know, without meat, which is fantastic if you happen to be plant based. And I sort of think that's kind of. What would that do to the world if actually you went into a bar or a restaurant and 50% of the drinks were alcohol free?

Kat Thorne (00:43:32) -  Yeah.

Kat Thorne (00:43:33) -  Do you think that's coming then? Because we've seen if you think about the last ten years, I mean, as a kid, I'd go to a barbecue, like a friend's birthday party or a barbecue, and I would have a white bread roll with onions and one of those fake plastic cheeses because there was no plastic cheese.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:43:50) -  That's a Radiohead song, isn't it?

Kat Thorne (00:43:53) -  You know, I mean, they square. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to unwrap that. Don't really taste like cheese. and a bit of ketchup. And that was my burger because there wasn't anything else. And now, there's just like, an array of things that you can have. And I wonder if it'll be the same with alcohol.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:44:12) -  Oh, absolutely. That that, I mean, I think. I mean, I stopped drinking, knocking on for nine years ago now. It'll be nine years by the time this comes out, I think. and, you know, there was there was nothing like that. That's.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:44:29) -  I always joke about the Perrier thing about. That's why I think sparkling water is classy. It's probably more the fact that I didn't have any choice. You know, if I wanted to drink something, it was water, or I could, I could, I could risk the pub coffee. But that was always going to be horrible, wasn't it? So it's like, well, what do you, what do you, what do you drink? But now, even over the last 12 months, I think we've seen such a huge development in, in the alcohol free space, particularly around alcohol free beer. But now, I mean, the supermarkets are selling it, you know, they're having special offers. There's there's a load there was a load of sort of cynical promotion for Dry January and get people to spend money because no one spends enough money in bars and restaurants in January. Do they say, well, I mean on the dry January ticket. So I think I think absolutely it is changing. I do just want to circle back to, moderation quickly because I think moderation is such it's such an interesting topic.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:45:25) -  It's quite divisive within the community. I think some people are very cynical of anybody who, who who talks about moderation, because it's almost kind of trying to sell people what they want to hear rather than what they necessarily need to hear. But my belief is that, you know, we all have to find our own way, and we all have to walk our own path. And for me to tell you what to do is, like, fundamentally stupid because I made a real hash of my life for about 35 years. Like the idea of me telling people what to do is just just dumb, isn't it? So, you know, is it? Is it about finding your own way and should? Is that what we should be doing as the sober community, saying, look, you know, we this is the path that we've found. We like sobriety, but we're perfectly happy to help you find a more healthy relationship with alcohol.

Kat Thorne (00:46:18) -  Honestly, I think, Even now, I wouldn't necessarily identify as being sober, as being part of a sobriety community.

Kat Thorne (00:46:32) -  I just, every time I'm around alcohol, make a conscious choice not to drink it. I make a conscious choice not to buy it. So even my identity is not shifted and I don't drink. So imagine somebody who is drinking and and so I think because I'm so into this concept of small steps lead to powerful change. I just think the idea of being sober for so many people who are currently drinking alcohol, on whatever level that is, it's really far away and it feels quite, quite unknown and quite scary. So I, I'd love to talk to you more and hear more about what sober people think about moderation. But I do think from my own experience and from the people I work with, that, actually just being mindful of it is much more doable. And I think what will happen is if you go too hard on people, they just think you're telling them to do something. Whereas when people start to reduce their alcohol intake, they'll start to see a difference and noticeable difference almost immediately.

Kat Thorne (00:47:42) -  And that is enough to drive change. And that's what I see with all positive habits.

Speaker 3 (00:47:48) -  Yeah, I mean.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:47:48) -  That gets us right back to where we were at the start about awareness. You know, the number one kind of thing. You've got to become aware if you're just living on this kind of like automatic kind of thing and you're not even giving it any consideration, then it's not going to change. So the first step is to get people to be more aware of their drinking. Stop.

Kat Thorne (00:48:08) -  Yeah, absolutely. There's a brilliant clip. So I don't know if you're familiar with Dapper Laughs. If you followed him on Instagram he's obviously on a big sobriety journey.

Speaker 3 (00:48:16) -  And it's to.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:48:17) -  Sobriety. Yes, the podcast we'd all love to be like.

Speaker 3 (00:48:20) -  Yes.

Kat Thorne (00:48:21) -  But, so I heard him speak last year live and actually he's got there's a little clip he, recorded on TikTok that I sometimes share in, in sessions. I do, and he basically talks about how he didn't realize he was addicted to alcohol because when he was at home with his family, he wanted to be in the pub because he thought being at home was boring.

Kat Thorne (00:48:43) -  And when he was at the pub he just wanted to be drinking. He just wanted to be there all the time. And now he's not drinking, he just wants to be at home with his family and when he's at home with his family, he's really glad to be there. When he's not with them, he wants to be with them. And but I think even sometimes when I play that video, it doesn't make people go, I want to be sober. I need to give up drinking. It makes people go, Am I drinking too much? Is it affecting my ability to parent? Is it affecting my ability to work? So that's I think we should be helping people to raise their awareness and make their own decisions and go on their own journey. Because this is a long journey, because remember how many years it's been ingrained in us that this is a good thing for relaxing, and this is totally socially acceptable?

Speaker 3 (00:49:35) -  Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:49:36) -  No, I mean, if I had to, you know, if I was only allowed to pick one word for my identity, father would definitely be higher up the list than sober.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:49:46) -  And on that note, I have to say that you are definitely not sober, because sober is a synonym of boring, and you know that you are definitely not that. So in that sentence, you are absolutely not sober at all. You're very colorful and exciting and enjoyable and all of that sort of stuff. So, look, just before I let you go, I might. So normally I ask people about the Ikea meatballs. Do you like the Ikea meatballs?

Kat Thorne (00:50:15) -  What do you think as a vegetarian? Not a massive.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:50:17) -  Do they do plant based meat?

Kat Thorne (00:50:19) -  Do they ask the bandwagon?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:50:21) -  They jump?

Kat Thorne (00:50:22) -  Have a tried them. It's again it's not something I would I.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:50:26) -  On that note, have you ever tried the mcplant from McDonald's? Speaking of no bandwagons no no, no. But it's probably a good thing cuz, nobody likes the meatballs. It's just when you're in Ikea, you kind of have to eat them. So what I normally ask people is in in sobriety, what is the one thing that nobody really wants to do, but everybody wants, but everybody should do? But maybe I should ask you, what's the one morning routine thing that nobody wants to do, but everybody should do?

Kat Thorne (00:50:54) -  It's moving your body.

Kat Thorne (00:50:56) -  Like getting your body moving first thing in the morning, whether that's a walk, a swim, a run, a cycle. Jumping around to Joe Wicks in your living room, literally ten minutes of something and it makes you feel amazing. It makes you feel incredible. Like, imagine a cloak where you like, you know, a superhero cloak and and nobody can touch this energy. It's, I feel most days that I am untouchable, but I really am untouchable. It's not that you're going to push me and I'm going to fall over, and that's the that's the result of doing something you don't want to do and getting control over those thoughts and that that chimp mindset. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:51:38) -  And and for me, first thing in the morning is the perfect time to do some of that movement, to do some of that activity. I like to do it before I've really woken up and can start talking myself out of doing it. yeah. That's.

Speaker 3 (00:51:51) -  That's. Yeah.

Kat Thorne (00:51:52) -  Definitely. Because the willpower becomes it just diminishes as the day goes on and there's so much noise and distraction.

Kat Thorne (00:51:59) -  You're never, ever, ever. The amount of times I promised myself I'd do it, at the end of the day, it's you're just you're already talking yourself out of it. Do it as early as you can and get it done. And and remind yourself that it doesn't have to be an hour or 30 minutes. It can be 510.

Speaker 3 (00:52:15) -  Yeah, Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:52:16) -  Because it's five minutes is better than no minutes, isn't it?

Kat Thorne (00:52:19) -  Exactly, exactly.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:52:20) -  Excellent, excellent. Okay, so, where can people find out more about the amazing work that you do.

Kat Thorne (00:52:27) -  So they can go to my website? Morning game-changer dot com. They can follow me on LinkedIn. I'm just Kat Thorne. I'm the one on game changer on Instagram. yeah. We'd love to chat to any organizations that are invested in wellbeing that actually works. and that's what we focus on. One small habit that, that changes people's days and ultimately their lives. It's good for them and it's good for business. So, yes, we'd love to hear from anyone who wants to chat more.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:52:55) -  Perfect, perfect. We'll obviously put all of that on the show notes at flatpack sober.com. And you know, I can personally endorse you as being very different in the wellbeing space, because I know lots of people in the wellbeing space, and a lot of them don't really have much of a clue about alcohol, and that is a bit of a shame. So you are the complete package. So people should definitely, definitely get in touch with you. If they have anything like an organisation they need need to hire you. So look. Kat, thank you so much for your time today.

Kat Thorne (00:53:24) -  Oh, it's been amazing. Thank you Duncan. And yeah, have a good rest of your day.